Film Junk Podcast Episode #686: Creed II


0:00 – Intro
18:20 – Review: Creed II
50:05 – Trailer Trash: The Lion King, Dumbo, Aladdin, Aquaman
1:07:15 – Other Stuff We Watched: Border, The Ballad of Buster Scruggs, Chuck, Peppermint, Avatar, Planes, Trains, and Automobiles, The Haunting of Hill House, Maniac, Hoffa, Vintage Tech Hunters
1:36:50 – Outro
1:44:30 – Spoiler Discussion: Creed II

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  • Tommy

    Nixing Barry Lyndon and no RIP to Roeg and Burtolucci*? UnculturedSwineCast?

    * as far as the intro. Will edit out if I’m made a fool of by the end of the ep!

  • Sean

    Nope, definitely Uncultured Swine Cast. Although Frank gave a late RIP to Ricky Jay somewhere in there.

  • pcch7

    Rocky does indeed turn the other cheek very often when insulted but he did get pissed off when Clubber Lang suggested that Adrian would be more satisfied in bed with him than with Rocky.

  • pcch7

    Personally I loved Creed 2, not quite as good as Creed 1 but still very strong for me.

  • Tommy

    Oh true. I forgot him. Uncultured swine, me.

  • devolutionary

    Which I’ve always hated in Rocky III (Doo Doo Dooooot Dooo!). Of course without that motivation, Rocky would be content as an oblivious “paper champion” and the movie would be immediately over. At least in IV, he’s saving America from the Cold War! Where’s his Nobel Peace Prize?

  • Beat_C

    Well, spelling it “Burtolucci” might no be to most cultured thing, neither ????

  • Beat_C

    nice to hear greg’s voice (and especially his laugh) after so long.

  • Tommy

    Haha. I actually looked up the spelling to check the double c and still typed Burt.

  • Colin

    The best part is that Frank let loose that they would be focusing on latter Kubrick… Barry Lyndon was the fourth from the last movie he made! They definitely need to cover it.

    Ideal list would be:

    – Dr. Strangelove
    – 2001
    – A Clockwork Orange
    – Barry Lyndon
    – The Shining
    – Full Metal Jacket (could be dropped if necessary)
    – Eyes Wide Shut

  • You’re missing out on early Kubrick. Particularly The Killing. It’s an 80-minute heist movie starring Sterling Hayden and they rob a horse racing track.

    Also Barry Lyndon is terrific! Should be a wet dream for any cinematography enthusiast.

  • Tim

    Concerning the upcoming Kubrick Creamyum – I hope you don’t bother to cover Eyes Wide Shut – despite having the usual Kubrick trappings in terms of art direction and music, it’s pretty dreadful in terms of ideas around sex and relationships, being made by an introvert who isolated himself from larger society for the last 30 years of his life.

    Any other listeners want to chime in on this?

  • tyler mikol

    I’d like 2001 up to Eyes Wide Shut. It’d be 6 films. Truly a daunting task for the lads but it would be awesome. This may be the longest premium yet. Shout out to Tim using Creamyum. Is that in the glossary?

  • schizopolis

    Next episode – The Night Comes for Us? Insane action/slasher on Netflix. Since Jay is anti-Asian film and not available, it would be a good time to fit it in.

  • bendoofus

    Personally I love it, but I think I’m in the minority

  • Oso Jugo

    Um, Eyes Wide Shut is about Secret Societies. You miss that part in the middle?

  • Kevin Cardoza

    Disagree. It deals with the notion of sexual obsession, jealousy, and the desire to cheat in a relationship and the way it consumes you and rewards ample watches. I think my favourite moment is when Tom Cruise’s character is in the hooker’s apartment and there is a filter on to give everything a dreamlike fantasy during the sexual teasing, and then right after she answers the phone the filter starts to dissapear and you can’t help but notice she is living in squalor.

    Besides, even if they don’t like the film either, I think there is plenty for them to discuss anyways.

    That said, if we are choosing the non-obvious Kubrick options, I would personally prefer Barry Lyndon and The Killing over Eyes.

  • parapa

    Its the action movie to beat in 2018

  • I will never grow tired of “Hi!”.

  • pcch7

    I was excited for it but didn’t like it much tbh.

  • Kevin Cardoza

    I definitely take off my shoes during flights, although only if they are the ones over 5 hours. If I’m taking a 12 hour flight somewhere and desperately trying to remain comfortable crammed in that economy seat, the shoes are coming off. That said, I always take a shower right before heading to the airport and wear clean compression socks for the flight and I do not take those off. People are getting too comfortable though. I once caught a woman clipping her nails next to me in the theatre and I stared her down until she stopped.

    Also agree that the Razzies are just as political and trend-following as any other awards show, as evidenced by Kubrick getting a worst director nod for The Shining. As well as other obvious things: If you agree that Catwoman had terrible direction and terrible scriptwriting, if anything that should have made Halle Barry not applicable to worst actress since her performance is actually pretty good considering what she was forced to work with.

  • devolutionary

    It’s a good pairing with Tjanto’s prior film, Headshot. And if they could weasel Reed in, he could elaborate on Timo and Kimo’s 2014 film, Killers (def unlike those films – horror/drama).

  • Kyle Mac

    Reed, man, you gotta do the podcast next week. I only listen to this shitty show in the hope that you’ll be on.

  • Nobody

    That would be cool, but Jay did express interest in watching it.

    Other review suggestions: Burning (probably too limited of a release), Apostle

  • Sam

    Definitely agree. The Killing is a must for Frank to check out as a Tarantino inspiration. If not for the premium, at least for the regular show.

    Just seemed like Frank seemed a little too dismissive about earlier Kubrick considering I like The Killing and Paths of Glory just as much as anything else Kubrick made throughout the rest of his career.

  • Beat_C

    clipping one’s nails in public is the most disgusting thing ever.

  • milan

    for a quick catch up before creed 2 i would recommend this CREED MUSICAL:

  • milan

    and a classic ROCKY 4 the musical. LEGOLAMBS are the best if you love 80s action so you should check out theirs youtube channel:

  • Indianamcclain

    Hey Sean will there not be a review of Steve McQueen’s Widows?

  • Lior

    I’d love to hear a review of The Killing. Frank mentions Barry Lyndon as the sole “not-latter Kubrick period” they are considering in the line-up, or in other words, “early Kubrick”. But I don’t see Barry Lyndon as early Kubrick, The Killing is early Kubrick and Paths of Glory is early Kubrick. I am curious to know if there are any Kubrick films the gang hasn’t watched at all and this can potentially be the first time…

    For the record, I love Eyes Wide Shut, but I’m a big Kubrick-head.

  • Sean

    Coming this week with any luck!

  • Oso Jugo

    The movie is about the degeneracy of the rich and powerful, a theme that Kubrick was very familiar with. The Shining is about a man who becomes a servant at a place where all the “best people” go and is driven mad. Dr Strangelove is about an establishment that is absolutely raving.

    Again, if it’s about sexual obsession and jealousy, why is a large part of the movie dedicated to a run-in with a secret society? Kubrick certainly understood people when he named the film Eyes Wide Shut, because the general public is so unwilling to accept the possibility such societies exist, that they still think the movie is about Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman’s relationship twenty or so years after its release date. Even you, Mr Cardoza, who says the movie rewards ample watches haven’t seen it yet.

  • Kevin Cardoza

    LOL what an overly condescending and pretentious response. You believe your theory, I believe mine, but to insist only yours can be right is ridiculous. An even larger part of the movie is about men taking great risks for a little titillation and the “secret society” is just another version of it. If anything, even if you believe their threats were real, the “secret society” still ends up being about a bunch of dudes creating a lot of mysticism and ceremony to disguise the fact that what is really happening is they are just paying prostitutes to fuck them and don’t want to get caught.

    Also, The Shining could not make it more clear that it is about one man’s personal demons of a different sort as well. To say it’s about a man becoming a servant of rich people is a pretty big stretch.

  • Kevin Cardoza

    There’s also the fact that Barry Lyndon is 3.5 hours long and has chapter titles, so Jay would be pissed!

  • Oso Jugo

    If the Shining is about Jack Torrence, why does Wendy see the man in the bear costume getting it on with the other fella? Jack’s visions are largely connected with the gala parties of the rich located in the ball room. The picture at the end with Jack actually at the rich man’s ball, dressed in period clothing. “You’ve always been here.” Oops, you missed the point of the Shining too.

    No reason to resort to name calling.

  • Kevin Cardoza

    The picture at the end is there to question whether The Shining is a story about mental illness or is supernatural in natural. Not that hard to consider. I never resorted to name calling. I called your posts “condescending” because you are reading a lot into things and then claiming that anyone else who doesn’t do the same thing “doesn’t get it.” As if films that have been theorized to death for decades only have one “correct” interpretation and that is of course the one you happen to believe. You are aware that someone might claim you “missed the point” of The Shining if you refuse to accept it’s about the moon landing being faked, right?

  • Oso Jugo

    I’m sorry, I can’t seem to find your response to why Wendy saw the man in the bear costume? Also, we see the picture at the end, after a Jack is dead. Both of these things preclude the notion that everything was in Jacks head. I’m not saying I know definitively what everything means but the suggestion that the movie is solely about Jack Torrence and his family is wrong, given the things I’ve pointed out. The movie definitely has something critical to say about the wealthy.

  • pcch7

    Always good to have Gregorian back btw

  • Lior

    Let’s not exaggerate, it’s “only” 3 hours long. :-) :-) and the chapter titles are perfectly placed (there are only three if I’m not mistaken).
    The Killing is one of the best Film Noirs out there. What’s interesting about Kubrick is that he worked in so many different genres and made each of them his own.

  • Maureen W.

    Regarding the Creed sprinting thing, when you’re sprinting, you should be
    running “forefoot” then heel to add power to your strike on the ground. For any other speed, heel – toe is the tendency for most runners.

  • Oso Jugo

    I hadn’t watched the whole movie in forever so I watched it last night out of curiosity. I’m heavily tempted to think the whole thing is a meta commentary on the depravity of–not only the American upper class establishment–but also Hollywood. The photograph at the end of the film is dated 1921. The roaring twenties is well know for its decadent heights but it was also Hollywood’s first big decade on the world stage. Jack Nicholson was known for living the high life, so the Jack in the photograph could just as easily be there to represent the movie star Jack Nicholson, and not the Jack Torrence of the film. Let’s not forget that Jack Nicholson was good friends with Roman Polanski around the time of the Manson murders and Polanski was actually arrested at Nicolson’s home for the sexual assault of a thirteen year old girl. The song that plays over the photograph is Midnight the Stars and You with the word stars serving as an unsubtle reference to the hollywood star system. I would go as far as to suggest that the bear costume represents the state of California–home of hollywood–with it’s Bear flag adopted in 1911 (the overlook is said to have been completed in 1909). The bear that services the establishment through the production of films that flirt with approved philosophies and codes of conduct. There is a reference to the Donner party who were on there way to California, in the hopes of sharing in the wealth of the gold rush, when they met with their unfortunate fate. The ball room in the Overlook is named the Gold room. The “Here’s Johnny” line is said to be an ad lib but I have no doubt that meticulous Kubrick would have seen the symbolism of keeping it in the film. Johnny Carson was, of course, host to all of Hollywood, and his late night show could easily serve as a type of Gold Room. Danny Torrance is plastered all over with Warner Bros and Disney cartoons the whole way through. Kubrick was a smart guy. I wouldn’t put all this past him. I wouldn’t doubt that, yes, he even had had something to say about the apollo program, because he pairs Danny’s apollo sweatshirt with what is supposedly the most evil room in the overlook. What he’s trying to say I don’t know, but he could be suggesting something shady is going on with the whole affair. Perhaps not. Now this is just all off the top of my head. I’m sure there’s lots of stuff I missed. But you Mr. Cardoza have seen Mythbusters. You know the 4K truth. Your television and electronic devices would never lie to you. You paid too much for them. Everything in your world is on the level. You’re just living on gee golly swell sesame street where everyone is your neighbor and nothing nefarious or sinister has ever been done in the whole history of the created world right? It’s a movie about a trashy Stephen King character who goes all silly in the head, and tries to kill his family. That’s it, nothing more. Bill Nye and Wolf Blitzer said so. Blessed be Lord Xenu, amirite? Eyes Wide Shut is about TomNic and nothing more. It’s just a fun time at the movies. John Tesh and Mary Hart authoritatively laid down the imperial transcripts of this undeniable fact on an episode of Entertainment Tonight. The law has declared all who think otherwise to be an unorthodox and deviant.

  • Oso Jugo
  • yonato

    Did you guys hear about the Blade Runner anime series that Adult Swim is making? I’m interested mainly because Blade Runner is one of my favorite film series. And I know Sean you’re such an anime head now, right?

  • Sean

    Yes I am a *huge* anime head and I did hear about it. I’ll check it out, although I hope there is a continuing story instead of disconnected individual tales like The Animatrix or something. I watched the Blade Runner 2049 animated shorts… they were okay.

  • Oso Jugo
  • My general take on Eyes Wide Shut is mostly about how we’re told as a society to be faithful, feel guilt if we lust after others, etc. while the secret society angle shows that the wealthy & powerful telling us ‘how to live’ are a bunch of hypocrites. There’s obviously a bunch more going on between Kidman/Cruise and a ton more subliminal things, as is the Kubrick norm.

  • Oso Jugo

    I’m sorry to continue this train of thought but it has been fascinating me for the last couple of days, and since I live in a place devoid of living people I’m just going to leave it here. My dearest apologies to the moderator.

    I think I have the clincher in terms of what Kubrick was trying to get across in the Shining. This Kubrick quote helps: “I have always enjoyed dealing with a slightly surrealistic situation and presenting it in a realistic manner. I’ve always liked fairy tales and myths, magical stories. I think they are somehow closer to the sense of reality one feels today than the equally stylized “realistic” story in which a great deal of selectivity and omission has to occur in order to preserve its “realist” style.” Since Kubrick was an atheist, you can’t really take the film at face value as a ghost story. What it really is is a story told in the same style as Alice In Wonderland. It’s completely surreal but told in a realistic fashion. Now, as I said before, I think the photograph at the end is there to represent the actor Jack Nicholson and not the character of Jack Torrence. In the novel, Jack Torrance is John Torrance so Kubrick changed the name of the main character to match the name of his star actor. What really pulls the actor Nicholson into the film though is the character of Grady, who is essentially a mirror to Torrance/Nicholson. There is Jack Torrance and Jack Nicholson and there is Charles Grady (the name he is given during Jack’s interview at the start of the film) and Delbert Grady (the name he uses when he introduces himself to Torrance). The first name stays the same in reference to Jack, while the last name stays the same in reference to Grady. Now there is no reason whatsoever that Grady is given two different names except to subtly pull the actor Nicholson into the film. The manager says that Grady killed his family in the winter of 1970, the same year that Nicholson had his star breakout role in Five Easy Pieces. That being said, when we come to the pivotal scene in the strange bathroom, between Torrance and Grady, we have a scene that becomes almost totally meta, and what gives it away is when Grady tells Jack that Jack has always been the caretaker, and that Grady has always been there. Grady is talking about the film–the piece of artwork itself–called The Shining. Torrance has always been the caretaker in the film The Shining, and will always be the caretaker. Grady has always been in The Shining to tell Torrance that. Likewise, Nicholson will always be playing the role of Jack Torrance in The Shining, and sure enough every time I watch it, he is the caretaker. Kubrick is referring to the power Hollywood has to immortalize its stars. This explains why Jack tells Wendy that he’s having bad deja-vu, that he feels as though he’s been in the Overlook before. Jack Nicholson, the actor, is playing the role of a caretaker, or worker. Now, in the 1920s, actors were still referred to as players. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy; or, all worker and no player make Jack a dull boy. Again, the “All work and no play” line is not in the Stephen King novel. In fact, I’ve read that Kubrick didn’t even look at the screenplay King had adapted. I really think all this explains where The Shining gets its strange power. Kubrick is raking Hollywood and it’s owners over the coals through subtle metaphors and allegories. He’s essentially saying that America and Hollywood are run by insane, decadent murderers, through the symbol of the Overlook. It’s no secret that Kubrick didn’t like Hollywood and he left America in 1961, never to go back. Lastly, I’ve also learned that apparently in the final shot of the film, one of the photographs on the wall–besides the central one of Jack at the party–is of the actor James Mason, who played in Kubrick’s Lolita, and strangely enough, was on the set of the Shining one day, as this footage documents.

    Anyhow, if that’s James Mason, the actor in one of the photographs at the end of the film, then there’s no reason not to think that that is Jack Nicholson, the actor in the central photograph.

    Here’s a related video that points out the surrealistic design of the Overlook hotel sets:

  • Oso Jugo

    Let the record show in this court of public opinion that–at least in one respect–I was accurate in my interpretation of what Stanley Kubrick was trying to do with The Shining. From Wikipedia: “While working on The Elephant Man, Lynch met American director Stanley Kubrick, who revealed to Lynch that Eraserhead was his favorite film. Eraserhead also served as an influence on Kubrick’s 1980 film The Shining; Kubrick reportedly screened the film for the cast and crew to “put them in the mood” that he wanted the film to achieve.”

  • Oso Jugo

    Okay, I can’t resist one more comment since I found this delectable bit of information. The movie playing on the unplugged television set that Wendy and Danny are watching is called Summer of 42. Summer of 42 is coming of age drama written by Herman Raucher, who just happened to also be the main character of the film. The movie is about the screenwriter Herman Raucher, written by Herman Raucher. That does not happen often, as far as I know.

  • Oso Jugo

    I’ve always thought that since Stanley Kubrick was so popular that he couldn’t possibly have anything controversial to say but after my recent rewatch of The Shining I realized I was wrong. So I decided to rewatch Full Metal Jacket again. I don’t even really remember the first time I watched it because my friends and I were stoned for it, as far as I remember. Maybe it was during university, the stereotypical time in a mans life to get stoned and watch Kubrick films–and apparently not understand them. You get stoned, watch Full Metal Jacket, and after it’s over you say, “wow, the marines are badass dude.” On a rewatch, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that the marines might not be so bad ass. In The Shining he’s a little more subtle about his anti-establishment message but in Full Metal Jacket he couldn’t be more clear. He has a former drill sergeant play a drill sergeant, who apparently ad libbed some of his material. How more of an honest to goodness reflection of the American military can you get here. A bona fide drill instructor. So what happens? The drill sergeant drives one of his marines, Gomer Pyle, to madness before he even leaves for Vietnam, even though he points out Pyle can shoot. The other marine in Pyle’s class, called Joker, goes to Vietnam where we see the Americans are lost in abject confusion and chaos, characterized aptly by songs like Wooly Booly, Surfin Bird, and These Boots Were Made For Walking. “You’ve been messing, where you shouldn’t have been messing.” The common criticism that the film is disjointed in the second half is really just a way for Kubrick to make the confusion more palpable, in my opinion. During the climax they actually become lost , which allows a sole Vietnamese woman sniper the opportunity to decimate a good proportion of Joker’s group. Joker surprises her but botches his opportunity to shoot her–the very thing that he was supposed to have learned as a marine. The sniper is killed and in a truly apocalyptic and dream-like coda to rival Dr.
    Strangelove, the marines march through a fiery battlefield singing the theme song from the Mickey Mouse club, and we’re left with the impression that the drill sergeant—in fact—drove all the marines
    mad. Joker says his final piece but it rings hollow, like hes not so happy to be alive, and we’re left to wonder if perhaps he has found a fate worse than death, as a zombie-like servant of a power he equates with a cartoon character named mickey mouse. “No colors anymore, I want them to turn black.” “I want to see the sun blotted out of the sky.” There’s more evidence in the film but I’ve already written a book so I’ll leave it at that. Again, like with Eyes Wide Shut, the media failed to see that the criticisms of the film are directly lobbied at the American establishment. They claimed that it’s a film about the dehumanization that comes from turning young men into killing machines for the sake of a war effort. Where are the killing machines? Gomer Pyle goes crazy and Joker fails to kill when he has every opportunity to do so. This film is a sequel to Dr Strangelove. It’s about the madness and incompetence of the American government and military.

    But to bring it back to The Shining for a moment. I suggested that Kubrick may have been referring to the state of California when he inserted the man in a bear costume into the film. Well, what flag does he give pride of place to in a media room, all the way in Vietnam, that is apparently run by a Southerner?

    When we first see the room, however, the flag is not there, although everything else is the same, including the cartoon soldiers, mickey mouses, snoopys, and pictures of clowns on the bulletin boards.

    Looking forward to the premium.